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Amos King

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 Chris Keathley

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 Anna Neyzberg

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Episode Transcript

 

Amos: Welcome to Elixir Outlaws the hallway track of the Elixir community.

Chris: Oh man. I’m hungry. So you know, you know what I’m jamming over here right now?

Amos: What are you eating?

Chris: I got a little bit. I got, I got a Pop-Tart, cause I am a, I feel like trash and thus deserve to eat trash. Here. Let me ask you a question.

Amos: Is it, wait, is it an off-brand Pop-Tart?

Chris: No, no, it’s a, it’s a legit, uh, mainline top shelf Pop-Tart.

Amos: That’s not trashy then. That’s it’s top shelf.

Chris: This is a, this is a perfect snack. A perfect snack here. Let me ask you this. What’s your Pop-Tart technique? What’s your pop-What’s your Pop-Tart palate look like? Do you, do you go in for like a, do you do, do you put it in the microwave? Do you toast it? Do you put a little butter on the edge ? Or do you got one of those sophisticated raw palates and you just go Pop-Tartare?

Amos: Wait, wait, wait. Butter on the edge? Wait a second. This is, this is new to me. I’ve never put butter on a Pop-tart, but I am in.

Chris: You’ve never heard of this, this thought technology?

Amos: No, no. I do like Pop-Tartare.

Chris: Tar-tar is pretty good.

Amos: I also like it in the toaster and leave it in there until the, if there’s icing on it, like it just starts to like brown up the icing.

Chris: Um-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. When you’re feeling a little saucy.

Amos: I’ve never microwaved one either.

Chris: When you’re like, you know what I’m worth it.

Amos: Go that extra mile. I did put Pop-Tart on a grill once.

Chris: Why though?

Amos: I was camping out.

Chris: You just really wanted a hot Pop-Tart?

Amos: Yep. And it was really good.

Chris: It’s like hot and smokey.

Amos: Have you ever grilled a pizza?

Chris: Yeah. I’ve grilled a pizza. Listen, grilling pizza is the only way to make homemade pizza

Amos: It was like grilled fruit pizza. That’s –

Chris: Grilled fruit pizza.

Amos: Have you ever had fruit pizza? And I don’t mean pineapple on pizza because, because you people are wrong. Like pineapple on pizza is gross.

Chris: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Ok, listen, we have to-

Amos: No. Gross! Gross!

Chris: What? No. How is it gross? It’s not gross. It’s like, I mean, you can – here. Here’s my philosophy on pineapple on pizza. Why, why does this bother you? I don’t understand, like, why does it, why does it bother you?

Amos: I can’t, I can’t do it.

Chris: Like, there are literal actual war crimes in the world and there are things to be offended about and pineapple on pizza is the thing that you’re going to be upset about? Pineapple on pizza is just more pizza. I don’t know, like what’s the problem with – the quintessential, uh, bad pizza topping , anchovies, as we all know. That’s, or at least when I was a kid.

Amos: Oh no, that’s -I used to buy anchovy pizza in college because then the pizza vultures stop hanging around. I’m like, oh, you got- can I get a slice of the pizza? Oh yeah, sure. I got some pizza for you. It’s anchovy. Oh, oh, I got, I got some work to do. I’m going to, I’m going to go back to my room. I’ll see you later. Hey welcome Anna!

Chris: Uh, young people TV, uh, growing up on TV, I, I internalized exactly two things. One is that all children hate broccoli. And two is that anchovies are the quintessential bad pizza topping. Those are the only two things that I learned growing up about society. And even then I’m like, I think that’d be fine. I don’t understand what the problem is. It’s just more pizza. Pizza is like a perfect food.

Amos: It is. It is like pizza is my downfall. It’s the reason why I can’t lose weight very long is because then the day comes, when I eat pizza and that I want pizza every day after that.

Chris: Pizza’s the perfect food.

Amos: It’s so versatile. As long as you don’t put pineapple on it, then it’s gross.

Chris: I don’t under- But like it’s just more-

Amos: Oh no! Somebody –

Chris: I like pineapple generally. And I just don’t understand what the problem is with pineapple on pizza. I, like, so what?

Amos: Somebody sent me a picture,

Chris: It’s not like you hid it under the cheese. You can just pick those little chunks off of there. Good to go.

Amos: Then you still leave that nasty cheese.

Chris: How is it nasty?

Amos: I love pineapple too. I just don’t like it on my p- it’s gross.

Chris: You’re weird dude. You’re super weird.

Amos: I had somebody send me a picture the other day. I’m pretty sure it’s historically accurate. It says it’s from 1914 and they have an Italian American immigrant and they’re holding his face and pointin’ it towards a guy putting pineapple on the pizza for the first time. And he just does not look happy about it. It’s really bad.

Chris: Yeah. I’m sure.

Amos: You should not do this. Don’t put pineapple on pizza. That’s gross.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I feel like you’re arguing about which Tarantino movie you like the most at this point. That’s all good. It’s all good. I don’t understand what the problem is. It’s just more pizza. It also, toppings really can’t ruin a pizza. Can we all agree on this ? Toppings can’t ruin a pizza. Not really. I mean, in terms of like sure you can devise a topping that ruins a pizza. You’re like, I want to put an entire flank steak on my pizza and it’s like, okay, well that’s weird. You’ve made it not eatable now.

Amos: That’s how I feel about pineapple.

Chris: But uh, but in the sense that like normal toppings, you go to your, you go get a topping out of the, uh, you know, from the, the topping section of your local pizza parlor. You throw those toppings on there. It’s not that ruined the pizza. You don’t will ruin the pizza. Oh, 100% of the time, ruin a pizza? Dough. Bad dough.

Amos: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Yes.

Chris: Bad crust. Bad cause. Those will ruin a pizza.

Amos: A hundred percent. I would rather have pineapple on my pizza than have bad crust.

Chris: This is what I’m saying. Well, see. And now, and now we’ve reached an accord, so it’s not that bad. Is really what we’re, we’re getting down to.

Amos: But almost every pizza place, even if they have great crusts, will give you a bad pizza with pineapple on it.

Chris: That’s incorrect. That’s literally incorrect. I- no. This is ridiculous.

Amos: This is the most important conversation-

Chris: We’ve ever had.

Amos: of the last 99 episodes that we’ve done.

Chris: Yeah, there are, there are only a few, only a few perfect foods in this world. Pizza, pizza is one of them, for sure. It’s way up there. Regardless of topping.

Amos: Fair.

Chris: I’ve had, I’ve had many pizzas in my life from many different regions of the world and I loved every one of them. Never found a pizza. I didn’t like, I don’t care if it’s Chicago, I don’t care if it’s Brooklyn, New York. I don’t care if it’s frigging Italy, I’ve had pizza and I’ve loved it.

Amos: You got to go to Greece and order pizza Americano. That’s what they called it. And it’s their American version of pizza. It’s got corn on it. Anything that says it’s American in Greece has corn on it.

Chris: I’d try that. I try that. Oh, I bet. It’s really good. I bet. It’s really good. Yeah.

Amos: Seem like they have, the, some of the best chefs, like just their attention to detail. It’s amazing.

Chris: I’m also gonna submit a Chicago style, hot dog. Perfect food. That’s a perfect food .

Amos: I think that’s what I’m having for lunch now.

Chris: Oh, it’s a religious experience.

Amos: It’s got neon green relish on it.

Chris: Yeah. You got to get that neon green relish. You got to get the sport peppers. You got to get a little bit of celery, celery, salt on there. It’s gotta be in a, like a Vienna beef, but a hot dog. And like a what’s the special bun? They, they, there’s a special bun.

Amos: It’s got like, it’s not sesame seeds.

Chris: It’s supposed to be. No its, uh-

Amos: What is it? Caraway seeds?

Chris: And it’s steamed. It’s steamed the bun is steamed. Um, oh, it’s oh, it’s good. It’s good stuff. It’s real good stuff. Get a little mustard on there. It’s like the perfect combination of every flavor group that you’d want.

Amos: It’s like sweet, spicy, salty.

Chris: It’s all of it. It’s all of it. So good. Uh, and I’m gonna throw out there a, a, a pulled pork barbecue sandwich, obviously with coleslaw. That is a requirement.

Amos: Oh yeah.

Chris: Its hot. It’s a little bit, a little bit of sauce on there. Oh, that’s a perfect food. You got a perfect food going right there.

Amos: Mmm. Now wait, wait. The slaw. Mayo or vinegar base sauce.

Chris: Yes.

Amos: Either one. Both. Alright.

Chris: Uh, I like my coleslaw, when I make it at home, obviously has mayonnaise in it. Cause I mean, come on. You’re making coleslaw. You gotta, I mean, you can’t make a salad without mayonnaise. Uh, so you gotta get the mayonnaise in there. I mean, it has mayonnaise, but it has a non-trivial amount of apple cider vinegar in my coleslaw that I make here at the house. So you get that head of cabbage. You chop that bad boy up, throw it in a bowl, put a little Mayo in there. Put a little honey, a little bit of a little, just a little bit of mustard. And then some apple cider vinegar. Uhmm. You got coleslaw going. And you just toss that. up.

Amos: I’ve got everything, but the honey. So now honey’s next. Next try.

Chris: I like to chill mine for about 30 minutes, but I don’t let it sit there and get kind of soggy. I like my, I like it to have a little crunch.-

Amos: Oh yeah.

Chris: Personally,

Amos: Especially if you’re going to put it on a sandwich, you gotta have some crunch on your sandwich.

Chris: Well and you got to offset- again, you’re bringing all these flavor groups together into one perfect flavor combination for perfect flavor delivery platform, right to your taste buds. And it’s the best thing in the world. I’ve had one cup and I slept for five hours. I’m super tired. So. I’m on my second cup. We’re cracking it open right now. And I’m eating a Pop-tart over here. Yeah. Pop tar-tar went straight raw. No, no heat.

Amos: What? We’ll wait for you. We’ll wait. Go ahead. You just run down to the store. It’s 90%. Its over 90, I would say 98% of all Pop -tart consumption in our household is, you know, raw.

Amos: Yeah. Yeah. Another really good way to have Pop-tart is forget about it in your black car in the summertime. And at lunchtime, when you’re looking for a snack, you pull it.

Chris: Oh, and it’ll be perfect.

Amos: It’s like it’s, it’s, it’s amazing.

Chris: It just falls apart. It has no structural integrity anymore. You pull it apart and it’s just coming apart and just a little chunks. Oh, I love it. It’s the best.

Amos: Like after a summertime hike. Or like you go canoeing and you get out and you’re back to your car. And you’re like, oh yeah, I forgot. I had this Pop-tart.

Chris: I love it.

Amos: This just made my day.

Chris: This is good. Happy Centennial episode, everybody. We did it. No one- they said it couldn’t be done. We believed them. And yet here we are. Yeah.

Amos: So, I, it, it blows my mind. Uh, and, and, and the fact that we still have, like, at least one download per episode, it, after a hundred of these.

Chris: That’s just because people put us in their podcast listeners and then forgot.

Amos: Oh, well, I’ll take it. I’ll take it.

Chris: That works. But here. Here’s the thing. If this show had been released, uh, consistently every week, that is not true, but if it had, that would be two years, almost two years, roughly two years’ worth of episodes.

Amos: That means there’s like, there’s like a hundred hours of us talking.

Anna: That’s a lot of hours,

Chris: Probably slightly less than that. Most of our episodes don’t go that long.

Amos: That’s true. That’s true.

Chris: Not an hour.

Amos: Yeah. 45 minutes.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes we do a tight 35 in and out, but yeah, it’s been a hundred episodes. Here’s my question to you, my dear friends. What have, what have we learned in these past hundred episodes? What’s the, what’s the life lesson that you’re going to take away from this?

Anna: I like Keathley on lack of sleep.

Chris: Oh, it’s real good.

Anna: Life lesson.

Amos: You mean it’s okay to have pineapple on pizza as long as the crust is really good.

Chris: Okay.

Anna: Yeah. I learned that today. I learned that most people don’t eat Pop-Tarts toasted.

Chris: I don’t know about most people, I can’t speak for the world, I can speak for me and my experience.

Amos: We just don’t have time.

Chris: It was a treat basically like whenever we had Pop-Tarts as a kid, it was a big deal. If you got to toast that junk.

Amos: Well, and I mean, yeah. And as an adult, like I either get an extra five minutes of sleep or I get a toasted Pop-Tart I’ll take the sleep and a cold Pop-Tart.

Anna: Yeah. I’ll always take the sleep and eat a cold Pop-Tart. That’s true.

Amos: And on next, next time, you’re on, when you have to give us a report of your first experience with a cold Pop-Tart. Actually just bring a cold Pop-Tart.

Anna: I’ll just bring up a cold Pop-Tart.

Chris: Please do. Now, Let’s talk about something important. But seriously, what are the things-

Anna: Yeah.

 

*Chris eating Pop-Tart noises*.

Amos: Nom-nom-nom.

Chris: Okay. Let me, let me, let me ask a different question. Let me ask a different question. I mean, let me back up a little bit, you know, it wouldn’t be a show if I wasn’t eating during the show because that’s my life. What’s, what’s been, what’s one of your favorite moments? They did not know I was going to do this to them, by the way.

Amos: No, no.

Chris: So they’re sitting there so contemplative.

Chris: What’s your favorite moment? Do you have one?

Chris: Um, I got Jose to quit at Ecto. That’s not actually my favorite moment.

Amos: Did you actually get him to quit?

Chris: It’s a memorable moment. No, he said he, he said that that was the case. I don’t think that’s, that was true.

Anna: I think one of my favorite shows was, um, at a Gig City in person.

Chris: That was super fun.

Amos: Which, which one? The one where Dave threw dollar bills at me? Or the other one?

Anna: No, the one where- the other one. That wasn’t Gig City! That was Lone Star.

Amos: No, that was Gig City. That was the first Gig City.

Anna: That was the first one? I thought it was Lone Star.

Chris: Gig City Dos 2.0 Redux edition is, was the one.

Anna: Right.

Chris: I also remember that one being as being real fun.

Amos: Where Brian Hunter’s daughter came up.

Chris: Oh, that was great.

Amos: Yeah, that was so much fun.

Anna: That was awesome. I thought that was a great show.

Amos: He’s speaking at, uh, at Code BEAM too. I believe, I believe I should know but I don’t. Anyway. Yeah, that was a good one. What did you like about it?

Anna: That was a good show. I just thought that like, you know, it was a super fun show. I think the audience was super engaged. It was fun to have people come up and like, I thought we had a really interesting conversation going about like failure and systems, et cetera. Yeah. I just thought it was, I just remember it being super fun. I think like, I dunno why. I don’t know. I just remember it very clearly. I don’t know why I remember it so clearly, but I think just cause it was a really good show. That it was fun to like share it with like a live audience that was super, super into it.

Amos: Yeah. It was a lot of fun. I like bringing people up on stage

Anna: What about y’all?

Amos: Elix Conf Africa. It felt like that too a little bit. Uh, even though it was virtual, that was pretty cool. Um, I actually, some of my best moments are show related, not on show.

Anna: That’s true.

Amos: So I, uh, Lazy River Conf was spectacularly, really fun.

Anna: Oh yeah that was awesome.

Amos: Uh, and, and I, I, I, our chances that we’ve gotten to talk to people and hear about how our shenanigans of talking about Pop-Tarts, it just makes their day. And then once in a while we get to talk about Elixir too. So yeah. Yeah. I would, I would have to say the whole, kind of everything surrounding Lazy River Conf. The whole lead up to it. The jokes that led to us doing it, everything was just a lot of fun.

Chris: I mean, it literally started as a joke. I think it was just some throwaway thing that one of us said, and we laughed about . This is the danger. This is what happens is someone says one thing and then enough people laugh about it. You’re like, that would be kind of fun. And then that’s when that’s, when you sort of break the emergency glass, like, that would be kind of fun and then people’s brains start turning on like, oh, maybe we could go do that. Yeah. it was super fun. I’m trying to think now. Lazy River Conf. That’s just, yeah, like there’s been so many, like little, there’s been so many cool opportunities that have come out of, uh, us chatting about stuff and occasionally talking about things that kind of matter. That’s been good. And that’s been that’s, that’s, that’s been a very rewarding part of this whole shebang. And it’s always really encouraging when people are like, I really like listening to the show because y’all seem to get along really well. So I don’t know where they get that idea from. So then-

Anna: That’s a lie.

Amos: We usually start out telling each other how much we hate each other just so we can get it out of the way before we start recording.

Anna: Yeah. exactly. Before we start.

Chris: No, the real, the dirty secret is we’re not friends in real life.

Anna: Nope. Not at all.

Chris: This is all just an act. This is basically a job at this point.

Anna: An act that we’ve been doing for a hundred episodes.

Chris: It’s like live action performance art, but for the, but for the past three years or whatever it is. Three years. That’s like basically what we’re coming up.

Anna: That’s insane y’all.

Amos: That is, wow.

Anna: That is wild. That is a long time.

Amos: I don’t even know what to say that like that I hadn’t even thought about that, but I don’t feel like I’ve known you all that long.

Anna: Nope.

Chris: Oh, I know.

Amos: Actually, how all this started is also one of my favorite memories. Cause it’s just super weird.

Chris: And so just, well it’s so serendipitous and just sort of like, I don’t know. I guess that’d be fun. Sure. Let’s go for it.

Anna: I mean, I do feel like one of the things that, I mean, I’ve been, you’ll have recorded a lot more than I have, but I feel like one of the things that has been, I think, because it’s fun because it’s super low stress because it’s like, you know, there, we don’t, I feel like there’s not a lot of pressure. It’s actually made it easier to keep doing it as opposed to like, feeling like there’s, this is a thing that we have to keep doing. And I think that’s an interesting learning.

Chris: Yeah. It, it, it occurred to me the other day that we could stop at any point, like it’s, it’s not a forever project. And I feel like that the, the, the, the things that we’ve done to sort of protect our own stability around it are really important. And the fact that we do keep it very sort of not regimented, we don’t get guests, we don’t do, not really. Um, it all keeps it very low key. We don’t have, we don’t have an agenda. We don’t have stuff that we have to talk about. Uh, that makes it really fun just to jump in and, and talk and, you know, whatever happens is what happens and whatever’s in the show is in the show. And so that’s, it makes it not a chore. It makes it not a job.

Anna: Yeah. Which has makes it really fun and enjoyable. Yeah. And like having the flexibility, like I, like, I think I also just as much appreciate the moments where we’re like, you know, just when we choose whatever, for whatever is not to record. And are just like chatting that week. Right. Like, because of whatever’s going on in the world, et cetera.

Amos: Like my mini Elixir support group.

Chris: Yeah. For real, I’m trying to think, where am I, let me get my list. I have other questions.

Amos: Oh you’re like preprepared.

Chris: When we do have,- wow. You’re not supposed to prepare for the show. But when we have had guests I really like it too. It reminds me of, well I’m I might be aging myself. I turned 40 this month. So I remember watching like Johnny Carson and, you know, you have like Carson and, and the band leader. I can’t think of the other people’s names. And then they have a guest on there and they don’t really have a plan either. They’re just like off the cuff talking. And I think that when we have had guests, I’ve had compliments from them saying like, it’s super low pressure and they love being on. But I kind of feel like we’re like the Johnny Carson of Elixir, I guess.

Anna: I love it. What other questions do you have, Chris?

Chris: Uh, let’s see here. Let me, let me go. Let me go to the list. Um,

Amos: What did your kids have for breakfast?

Chris: Yup. That one’s key. I had favorite episode title, but I know that y’all, don’t actually look at the title so that doesn’t matter.

Amos: What’s yours? What’s yours? Let’s hear it. Let’s hear it.

Chris: Uh, I don’t have one. They’re all, they’re all so special to me. Um, no. Yeah. It’s uh, uh, I dunno. I don’t have anything super good here. I have a lot of stuff that was meant to just make y’all uncomfortable.

Anna: Like what?

Chris: Like rate your favorite guests right now.

Anna: I’m not doing that. That’s not happening.

Amos: Nope. They’re all tens.

Anna: Uh-huh. Exactly. Everyone’s awesome.

Amos: Yeah.

Chris: No, that was it really. Just what, what’s your favorite things that have sort of come out of this whole shebang.

Anna: Well, you haven’t answered the question. What’s your favorite like moment or show episode or show or Whatever?

Chris: Oh, um, I don’t even know. I think it’s, it’s really hard to pin down. I kind of agree. I think like the stuff that sticks out to me is all of the, just different opportunities to travel and speak and shuck and jive in front of other people who seem to enjoy this, this, this nonsense. And, um, I don’t know. There’s been a bunch of like little fun outcomes of the show and various rants and whatever. I don’t know. It’s been, it’s been good. Those are mine. Yeah.

Amos: Live shows. Live shows are awesome. All of them.

Anna: Everyone has been really fun.

Amos: And I think oftentimes at live shows, we seem to talk about community. And one of my favorite things is really like, I feel like we have a community and I feel like I’m a part of trying to push that forward and making sure that we, um, are trying to include everybody and pushing some of the, some of the topics around that, not just technology. And I really appreciate that.

Anna: Totally. Yeah. I can’t believe it’s so much time has passed. That is crazy.

Chris: I’ve had like 5 jobs.

Anna: You have.

Amos: Well, really I mean, it’s kinda like, it’s kinda like two years because we had that year, last year where it was just a month long. At least it felt like it.

Anna: That’s true. Yep. Groundhog day every day.

Amos: Yeah.

Chris: Oh yeah.

Amos: I’m, I’m actually really happy that we made it through that too. That I think was hard on all of us and really being able to hang out with you guys gave me something to look forward to instead of seeing just the same thing every day. And I got to see somebody that wasn’t my family, even though I love them to death, like just seeing, talking to somebody else was-

Anna: Nice? Totally.

Chris: I, somebody, I heard somebody explain that the other day, that, that phenomena of, of seeing the same people every day, even though you’re like, I love these people, but it would be like, if you took your favorite meal ever, and you had it for lunch and dinner every day for a year, you’d eventually be ready for something else. You’re like, okay. I would like to run. I would like to eat a slightly different meal at this point.

Amos: Fine. Put pineapple on the pizza. That’s fine.

Chris: Right. Oh, I mean, pineapple on pizza is like pretty good

Anna: I like pineapple on pizza. So I don’t know what’s wrong with y’all, but you know.

Chris: But you also, you got to go the whole distance. Let’s be clear on the-

Anna: That’s true. That’s true.

Chris: You can’t just have like tomato-based sauce. You gotta get that little bit of barbecue sauce going on at that point.

Amos: Well, I have not had that.

Chris: I mean, a little bit of barbecue chicken.

Anna: Yep. That sounds good. You get like the sweet and the savory.

Amos: There’s a place here that has crab rangoon pizza. And it’s really good, but it’s so rich, like one slice and I’m done.

Chris: Yeah, it sounds like I could eat exactly one bite of one slice.

Anna: Exactly.

Amos: It’s so good. It’s so good.

Chris: Oh, 5 hours of sleep. I’m so tired.

Anna: Yeah I hear you. I’m tired today too.

Chris: Today’s my last day at my job, basically. Basically the last day I have an exit interview coming up here in a bit. How do you all feel about exit interviews?

Anna: I don’t know how useful they are.

Chris: Yeah. That’s my feeling on it.

Amos: I mean for you they’re not much. Sometimes I think that you can have a major impact on what they do in the future.

Anna: I mean, the thing is, is that like, I’m not going to burn any bridges, right.

Amos: Right.

Anna: Like how honest am I going to be? Probably not that honest because I’m not going to burn any bridges. So like how useful is that?

Chris: Yeah. I mean, you’d have to assume that all the data that you’re getting is, is corrupt, right? You can’t assume that any of the data itself is valuable. And I feel like all you could really do is it’s like, all you can analyze from an exit interview is metadata. The actual things that people are saying, it’s like, well, they’re leaving you know,

Anna: That’s the biggest piece of data.

Chris: I feel like that’s, they’re not inclined to either tell you the truth or to, uh, be super open with you. And if they are super open with you, they probably, well, they’re leaving. They probably have other motives, like.

Amos: Yeah, I guess the, the times that you’ll get truth out of that is like, when somebody is going to start their own company or they just got some crazy offer to work on something that just blows their mind, and they just want to be a part of it. And then you get some honesty out of it. If, if you quit your manager. Yeah. Most, most people leave their jobs because they’re quitting their manager or their boss or the environment. Yeah.

Chris: Or any number of things, right. It’s, and I guess that’s what they’re trying to suss out, but you’re really not incentivized to talk about.

Anna: But it’s like late at that point, right?

Chris: Well, clearly it’s way too late. Like it’s way, way too late. By the point in time somebody leaving

Amos: Well and from their place they’re trying to go, okay. What did we do wrong so we can make it better for everybody else? so.

Anna: Yeah. The problem there is that often, so often that happens like so late in the game. Right. So often that happens, like when someone’s leaving and like companies shouldn’t wait until somebody is leaving to figure out how to fix things, right. Like,

Chris: Yeah, for sure. I mean, and people do leave for other opportunities and stuff like that.

Anna: That’s just different, right? Like you can’t control, like employment- this is going to sound terrible. In my perspective, I probably shouldn’t say this out loud.

Chris: No say it. Now you got to. Now you’re paw committed.

Amos: You’re in.

Anna: I feel like- this is gonna sound terrible. Employment to me is like a mutually exploitative relationship, right?

Chris: Hundred percent.

Anna: Like as long as both, as long as both people are like super aligned in what’s happening, then it’s, everyone’s happy. But as soon as that shifts for one party or the other, then like something needs to change, right?

Chris: Oh yeah. A hundred percent.

Amos: And it’s better if the two parties can figure that out and go their separate ways happily. And that doesn’t always work. Cause sometimes you don’t notice either that you’re sep, you’re going separate ways until it’s till it is too late.

Anna: Until it is too late. Exactly. But it’s like, yeah. When, when everyone’s goals are aligned, cool. But then as soon as those goals shift, it’s not personal, right. It’s like, it’s just like, it’s, you know.

Amos: Have you ever read the Netflix book Powerful?

Anna: No.

Amos: it is very much like that. Like you hire people when they’re right for you and you’re right for them. But as soon as it’s not, it’s time to move on and you should help them find, uh, if like, if you’re the employer, you should say, hey, you know, you’ve, you’ve done your job here and now it’s time to find a place that’s better for you. Let me help you.

Chris: It was something I really appreciated about Carbon 5. I mean, I think they said it in the very first meeting when you’re my very first thing. Like my very first day, they just said upfront, hey, look, you know, we are not the final necessarily the final destination for a lot of people’s careers. That does happen. Some people do land here and stay here for a really long time. But by and large, a lot of people come join here, uh, in between other startups or between other stuff that they’re doing. And we’re totally comfortable being that position. We hire great people. We love working with these people. They’re super smart. But sometimes people like, you know, get really done with a, with a startup or something like that, and want to enjoy that startup lifestyle, like enjoy startup, early stage startup sort of technical problems. But without the, without the drama of like, oh man, we might run out of runway in six months or whatever. And so then people, so that’s why people come in and join the company here. And some people come and join and then they leave and then they come back and there’s people who’ve been at Carbon 5, like three times, like, left, come back left, come back left, come back and then left again. You know? And it’s like, they’re very comfortable in that position. I thought that was super mature and aware of the, of the world and aware of like, you know, I dunno, I thought that was just like a very clear eyed convers- a useful conversation. And I, and that’s kind of the same thing, right? It’s like knowing that when that relationship doesn’t make sense anymore, for whatever reason, that you help people find the next thing and you understand that, you know, you can’t try to like hook people into staying and sort of entrap them in, in some sort of like, long-term, you know, hey, stay her even though you’re miserable or like stay here, even though you don’t really want to be here. This isn’t really what you want to do. So it’s not good for anybody and it’s not good for them. And it’s not good for you

Amos: Or the team you work with because it rubs out.

Chris: Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Anna: Totally.

Chris: So yeah. I love that. I love that approach. It’s like if a startup founder comes to you and they’re like, hey, I want you to stay here and join this company or whatever, come work with me because I have this dream that I’m going to build this company and be really famous or rich or whatever it is, they’re asking you to help them build their dream. And in return they pay you money.

Anna: Exactly.

Chris: And so yeah. That arrangement has to work out for both of you to make it, to, to really want to do that.

Anna: Exactly. Exactly. Especially early stage. Oh my God. I mean, at any stage of employment, especially when it’s like early stage.

Chris: Yeah, yeah. There’s a, yeah. That’s a whole, that’s a-

Anna: That’s a whole different can of worms.

Chris: Yeah. There’s so many other problems you have to contend with that. That said , I’m totally joining an early stage company.

Anna: But it sounds rad and you get to do what you want. And the, you know, it’s like if the, if it’s a fit, it’s a fit, right? Like.

Chris: Totally, yeah.

Anna: I’m not against early stage companies.

Chris: Oh it’s just heartache.

Anna: I’m just more selective than I was earlier in my career about which early stage companies I would be willing to join.

Chris: I need to figure out how much I am allowed to talk about my new employment thing. Uh, I will have details on that soon, but what I can say is it is a lot of distributed Elixir stuff. So that’s going to be super fun. It’s a real small team. Um, and, uh, it is, um, working on and related to, uh, clean, renewable energy stuff and climate change. So I’m super, super, super, super excited about it.

Anna: That is so awesome.

Chris: And I’ll, you know, we’ll, I’m sure we’ll talk more about that in the future.

Anna: Yeah.

Amos: And cool people to work with.

Chris: Yeah. I get to work with Jeff Weiss. Yeah. He’s been on the show. He’s a friend of the show. He’s just a classy, classy person. Great. Like an incredible person to know. An incredible friend.

Anna: Jeff Weiss is awesome. He’s just a really nice human. Yeah.

Amos: While we’re talking about Jeff, Jeff, I need to apologize to you. Cause, uh, I think I’m supposed to write you a letter.

Chris: And you didn’t?

Amos: Uh, Jeff and I have been like pen pals since he was in Germany. And uh, and there was a point where I hadn’t heard from him in a while and I gave him crap about it. Uh, and then I had forgotten that he was on the ship. So it’s like, I’ve been out to sea. So then he finally sent me something and uh, I have, every time I go someplace, I pick up a postcard. So I have postcards that I have sitting out to write to him plus I want him to write him a letter and I have just been, not a very good pen pal for him. Sorry, Jeff. I’m admitting it to the world.

Anna: Yeah you should do that. Now you’re accountable. Now you’re holding yourself accountable. You got to do it.

Amos: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah, exactly.

Amos: That means now I gotta do it. I mean, that means I have a hard stop cause I gotta go write a letter.

Anna: I have a hard, actually. I have to drop, have to drop early because my mornings have been nuts. I was trying to make it specifically for this one. I wanted to come to record today, but I have to drop early cause

Amos: Well, we could, we couldn’t record the centennial episode without you showing up this would, it would just not be right.

Anna: That’s very sweet.

Chris: Well, yeah, we made it 100. I don’t know if I’ll make it another hundred. We’ll see.

Anna: I dunno. Time will tell. I was surprised you made it to this. So maybe it will be a surprise. I didn’t know that we’re going, gonna make it to this a hundred. So, you know,

Chris: I, yeah. I thought we’d make it to 50. I’ll be honest. That’s what I kind of assumed. But Hey, here we are.

Amos: I thought we’d do it for like a year, year and a half and then be done. That’s what I thought would have happened.

Chris: Yeah. Yeah. I figured at some point one of us would bail, but here, nope, just keep on.

Anna: I mean, to be fair, I bail all the time. You guys record a lot more often than I can.

Chris: You know, listen, not, yes, we all do that, but.

Anna: But somehow it’s still going.

Chris: Somehow it’s still going. This is great.

Amos: We got a live episode coming up.

Chris: We do.

Anna: Oh yeah. That’ll be super fun.

Amos: In person.

Anna: I’m going to see you all in person?

Chris: Hopefully.

Amos: Hopefully, hopefully, hopefully.

Anna: Depending on Covid.

Chris: We’ll see. I’m a big maybe on that currently.

Amos: I know. I’m just, I’m just a big yes. And uh, and my hopefulness is that I don’t have to cancel. I’m just, I go all in.

Chris: yeah, I’m currently a big maybe on it. Uh, I was, I was a, yes. I was a lock. I was locked in and then I’m like, okay, but maybe not. We’ll see.

Amos: Maybe not.

Anna: Yeah. It’s going to be an interesting fall.

Chris: Yeah. We’ll see. We’ll see. We’ll see. But hopefully we, we do, we dare to dream the dreamers dream a dream of time gone by, uh, maybe we’ll all get to go to conference.

Anna: Beautiful Keathley. ‘.

Amos: That was a great quote.

Chris: In any case,

Anna: In any case, this has been awesome, y’all and it’s fun to get to think about all of the stuff that we’ve done.

Chris: It’s been great. Uh, thanks for showing up everybody every, well, not every week, but you know, most of, whenever we record. Love you both.

Anna: Aww, love you both too!

Amos: Thanks for being, being part of this. You all are amazing.

Anna: Yeah. Very amazing.

Amos: I feel like we have to go out right now.

Chris: That’s all I have.

Anna: I know. All right, bye y’all.

Amos: Everybody have a great day.

Chris: Alright bye bye.